039: Create a Great Business Before You Build a Team with Sarah Torres-Ferrick

Create a Great Business Before You Build a Team with Sarah Torres-Ferrick. mirandamerten.com/39
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Sarah Torres-Ferrick joins me for my first interview of the show to talk all things growing a team in your small business. Are you ready to expand your team — whether that means taking on a couple of employees or just dipping your toes in the water by hiring a freelancer? Tune in, cause this episode is for you as Sarah tells us what we need to know before diving in.
Discussed In This Episode:
  • What Sarah loves about helping small businesses
  • Things that are important when growing your team
  • Why it’s important to understand what growing a team means for you and your company
  • How to know the difference between independent contractors and employees
  • Why you should never pay your employees and freelancers with PayPal or Venmo friends & family options
  • Why getting a business buddy or coach is important
  • How to use a system of consistent feedback when deciding to let someone go
  • How to get into the “leader” mindset
  • Sarah’s mapping exercise that she recommends you do this week if you are ready to expand your team

Links Mentioned In This Episode:
Sarah’s Free HR Toolkit: hrcircleonline.com/toolkit


Connect with Sarah:
Instagram (@sarahtorresferrick)


Other Helpful Links:
Instagram (@mirandamerten)


[00:00:00.990] - Miranda

Welcome to Coffee Powered Systems, equipping women with actionable steps to overcome, overwhelm and streamline business and life. So grab your favorite drink and come hang out with me. I'm your host, Miranda Merten. Welcome back to another Friday episode of Coffee Powered Systems, I'm your host Miranda Merten if you are new here. Welcome. And if you are a regular listener, welcome back. I'm so glad you're here. If you've been here before, you know that normally I do solo episodes, but this week I'm bringing you something a little bit different and I am bringing an interview that I did with Sarah Torres-Ferrick.


She is an H.R. specialist and she's going to chat with me about what to do when you are ready to expand and grow a team in your small business.


So go ahead and grab your favorite drink. I've got my coffee here as I listen to this episode and all the juicy goodness. Here's my interview with Sarah Torres-Ferrick.

[00:01:03.360] - Miranda

Enjoy. All right. Welcome to Coffee Powered Systems. We are here today with Sarah Torres Ferric. And this is actually my first interview on this podcast. I am so happy to have Sarah here. She is going to dive in with us and tell us all about H.R. and hiring. Sarah is an H.R. officer and she is the creator of the Fun Feedback Framework. So we are going to dive in with Sarah. Sarah, go ahead and introduce yourself.

[00:01:35.640] - Miranda

Tell us about your background and how you got into doing all of this.

[00:01:41.280] - Sarah

Thanks so much for having me. And I'm excited to be kind of your first one here. I kind of fell in to H.R. I studied philosophy and I'm still trying to figure out how I can make money philosophising. My dad was in H.R., so I started as an intern and I I really liked it. And I've been doing that for about 12 years. And I started doing that for federal agencies. And my husband actually has had his own small business this whole time.


So I've been in the small business game for a while, too, and I admittedly kind of hated it for most of that time. I was that wife that didn't get it and didn't like it. And it really grew on me, especially after we had kids. I, I saw how great it could be. And it was a few years ago that I had that, you know, slap in the face moment where it was kind of chasing that dream, climbing that ladder.


And I had a conversation with my husband where it was, you know, I'm not really happy where I am. Should I go for that next promotion? And he was like, you say the same thing. Like we had this conversation before. I don't think it's going to make you happy, like we've done this before. And he said, you know, when you help me with H.R. questions and you help the business people, I know you know that we pay people for that.


You know, that's a job, right? I was like, I guess it is a job. And that kind of pushed me into doing that because all the things that I was lacking in my kind of job, I could get with small businesses. And what I really loved about helping small businesses is what I didn't see in the workplace of the big business I could see in the workplace of small businesses. Right. They can create great work environments for people.


They can create great jobs for people. And I love helping great people create great lives for themselves and their workers. And so I just really love what I do. And I'm really excited to be here because one of the ways that a business owner can create great work environments is having a great business. And you have that with creating a great business, with great processes, great systems before you bring on the team, because you're kind of setting that up for success.


So I love this kind of process of getting everything right, kind of setting that foundation before you're kind of getting the employees and kind of building those walls, getting all the furniture in. So I love that kind of you're taking your community on that journey. And I'd love to to be here to kind of help you on that next step of the journey.

[00:04:32.520] - Miranda

So along those lines, what are the things that you think that's super important to have in place when you decide it's time, it's time to branch out and get someone? Because we can't just go, hey, I like you, come work for me and like a verbal hand, shake it because then we get in trouble with contracts or things like that.

[00:04:51.480] - Sarah

So, yes, you, the business owner, really needs to know what they want in a business and they have to have an idea about what goes on in the business. So oftentimes you might see people say we'll just outsource what you don't like doing. Well, it's not that easy because what you don't like doing might be something that you shouldn't be doing. At all, or it might be something that you need to be doing or you might be outsourcing something that you don't understand.


So now you're wasting time and you're wasting money. So it's a little bit more complicated. So you have to make sure that you've taken the time to understand what type of business do you want to have. Right. Do you want to have a business that's like an agency? So the kind of people you're bringing on are like mini use, like your CPA and you want an agency of other CPAs, or is it going to be a different kind of model where you're the CPA and the kind of people you're bringing on or more of that support staff?


What kind of company are you imagining? And then where are you? What is the purpose of the outsourcing? Right. Because outsourcing is growing, but you can grow different ways. A lot of times we think growing means I want to turn my business into Amazon, but I want to be the next Fortune 500 company. That doesn't always mean what growing and outsourcing and growing a team means. What does it mean for you? Does it mean that I want to grow my business because I do want to bring in more customers?


I do want to make more money. I do want to grow. I want to be a CEO that has a giant team under me or do I want to grow my business so I have time back and I want to be that CEO that says I only work three days a week because I want to travel or I want to spend time with my kids or I want to spend time with my partner. And so you need to have an understanding of what that means for you so you can decide that's going to let you know who you need to hire, what kinds of people you need to hire.


Once you have that idea, you still need to know what you want to hire. So you can say maybe you do say you need to hire like social media and maybe that is something you don't like to do. But that doesn't mean you don't need to understand it. Right. So that you can have a.


Yeah, that you can have a conversation, understand what you're looking for in a hire. Yeah.


And it's super important to you that the person at the top knows how to do everything at the bottom before you even hand it off, because it's a lot easier to understand their role as well.


Right. And I know you talk a lot about SOPs, and that's where this comes into. And it's you need to be able to know that job enough that you can have an S.O.P on it. And of course, as the leader, you don't want to be in most situations. We don't want to lead as micromanagers. Right. Because that's not why we're paying somebody, because then, yes, you could just do it yourself. But you need to know enough about that topic that you could have an S.O.P about it being able to make sure that your hire is following that S.O.P about it, but still be able to say, yes, but you're better at that than me.


Better at that could be because you have a better skill set added. Or maybe you love it more than me, or maybe that is just better use of your time than my time. But yeah, those having those soapies before you hire will be a game changer for you.

[00:08:23.090] - Miranda

Yes, exactly. So what's some advice you would give someone who thinks they're ready to hire, but they're not quite organized. They don't have those recipes quite yet. So what are the steps? Should they take? Should they go ahead and get everything set up or should they maybe start hiring people that maybe might know a little bit more than they are so they can kind of work through it together?

[00:08:45.500] - Sarah

So I think that they should go through some exercises just to ensure that they're on the right track for the role that they're going to hire.


Because what they don't want to do is to get somebody in a specific role and say, oh, I don't know what what we are going to do. If somebody if you're in a position and you're kind of in your business and you're saying, I don't know where we are, you probably need somebody to coach you through more of a systems kind of thing.


So that's somewhere where you need somebody like a business manager or like a systems coach to help you work through that before you bring somebody in to do the tasks.


And there's also going to be kind of a cost difference. Right?


So if I'm a business if I'm a business owner and I want to hire someone to help me get on podcast's, if I already have an idea about what I want, I'm probably going to be able to pay a normal rate. But if I have to just say, oh, I don't know what I want, I'm going to be spending a lot of money to get that person to figure it out. And by the way, that I'm probably not going to attract the best person because the best person probably wants to walk into the door and a company that kind of has their stuff together or I'm.


Only going to attract somebody that's probably not a kind of junior level executer of podcast's pitching, I'm probably going to attract someone that's more of a business strategist type person. So someone that would be kind of higher up in like an org chart. So now I thought I was hiring someone to pitch podcasts, but really I'm probably only hiring kind of a business manager. And that's not really what I was aiming to hire at. So if you can really be strategic about what you're looking for, it can really help you.


And if you don't have that laid out, you need to do some free work. And that pre work might mean you're going to need to get some help, some consulting, some coaching to help you. Or it's also OK if you have some leadership positions with you.


So it's OK within an organization to have you at the top and then to have some kind of managers helping you in the online community. You might hear like, oh, and these online r o b M's online business managers, you might have operations managers. These are people that kind of help a business owner kind of navigate these things on a more permanent basis. Or you can go to people on kind of a coaching or consulting level that can help you get through these things.


Or if you're if the business owner is kind of systems inclined, they can kind of just sit down, go through processes, do use resources like your podcast and kind of go through and think about what I want this position to do. Let me get the soapies in place. And if you have something that doesn't mean you have to go through that all the time once that person comes on board. Yeah, of course you're going to be refining them.


Those are living documents.

[00:12:02.690] - Miranda

Awesome. I love that.


Definitely knowing what you want before you get started, because I know I see a lot of people going, well, I kind of know what I want, but I'm not really sure that that's what I want. And then you get into it and then you realize that's not really exactly what you needed. So that's perfect. I love that. So when we're starting out, what can you tell us? The differences between hiring maybe freelancers, independent contractors or versus taking on maybe you want an employee.


What are the differences that we need to know about that? Because I know a lot of solo entrepreneurs, we tend to work with independent contractors more. So when would we know the difference between employees? And even when to make the shift?

[00:12:45.400] - Sarah

Yes, and it's it's hard to know when it's in your team member is an employee or a contractor, and what's difficult is we can't kind of go somewhere, point to it and say, yes, that's the answer.


And unfortunately, we don't get to decide. So we don't get to say, well, I'm the business owner and that's the person. And we both agree that we want to have a business to business relationship. We don't get to decide that there's government bodies and they're going to come in and decide and all the government bodies get to make up their own rules and they all have different rules. So it's super fun. But generally, even though they all have different rules, generally speaking, the difference is going to be kind of a control.


That's what you want to think about it. And if it's your employee, you're having control, you're saying that's my employee I'm going to care about and talk about and have control over how they're doing the job when they're doing the job. Right. So I'm going to care about their doing the job at the worksite or at the coffee shop at their house. I'm caring about them doing it in the morning or in the afternoon. I'm caring about if they're taking a break in the middle of the day to go to the museum with their kids.


I'm caring about those things. I'm not caring or asking about those things or bothering myself about those things with the contractor. Right. With an employee. I'm responsible for things like I'm paying for their computer and their email account and their software and their tools. I'm paying for everything that they need for a contractor. The they're paying for that because they're their own business. I'm not for an employee. I'm in charge of their ability to do their job.


So say I want someone to help me with Pinterest. Right. If I have this team member and I want to hire a virtual assistant to help me with Pinterest, if I'm going to say she doesn't really know how to use Pinterest and I want to give her this online course, I'm going to pay for it.


That sounds like an employee because I'm paying for her to learn how to do something for me. That doesn't sound like a contract, right? I wouldn't walk into Target and pay a target to figure out how to make me a nice purse. Right. That doesn't make sense. I wouldn't walk into the Genius Bar at Apple and pay the guy behind the counter to learn how to fix my my computer. Right. That doesn't make sense.


So I wouldn't pay the contractor to learn how to use Pinterest to then help me manage my Pinterest boards. That doesn't make sense. I could, of course, give that contractor my Pinterest S.O.P because I'm just letting her know how I've done it in the past in my business. So that's OK. So there is the ad. You can give that to contractors, the education about the design of the business and all that. But it is the it's the contractors job to make sure they stay up to date on all that.


So those are kind of the differences. And it's always going to be this like balancing act. There's not like, well, if I did this plus this, plus that equals contractor equals employee. You're kind of looking at it all. And it's like a government body is going to look at it and say, well, they have their own computer, but you gave them this, but then you didn't give them this. Right. And then you can also think about things like, well, Sarah's only works for me.


That kind of leans over to well, she's probably an employee. Well, Sarah has a dozen other clients. Well, she's probably an independent contractor. Right, because an independent contractor is supposed to feel like two businesses. So it should feel it should feel not like the virtual assistant employee is like doing a task for you. They're taking time and you're paying them for that time, regardless of kind of how well they're doing. Right.

[00:17:02.140] - Sarah

They're doing it as a contractor

[00:17:05.070] - Miranda

kind of like a partnership.

[00:17:07.160] - Sarah

Right. It's kind of like a partnership. And it's like you're saying like so you might have a you might outsource like public relations. And it's like they might be pitching you on podcasts, for example, on a podcast right now, might be pitching you on a podcast. And it's like I'm hiring you so that I can get on a podcast for publicity. That's part of the package. And you're a PR company.


You're not going to be worried about this. This is that everything you're going to do. So they're going to have their own expenses, like they might have calendar scheduling, they're going to have their computers, they're going to have their own website, all of that.


They're going to put into consideration with their rate, so what they're going to have to have is could they have profit or loss? Right. So that's what we have.


They have to make sure that they're having this profit or loss. You're not really going to be worrying about that as the business owner, as the company you're really just worried about. Are you giving them a proper kind of wage and they're not having to worry about what? I had to buy my pin, so I had to buy my computer, all of that stuff.


They they should just be getting a proper wage. And then one thing that always comes up when we're talking about contractors and employees is kind of how we pay them. And I always have to say this because it's a mistake we always make is just like friends and family, unlike Venmo and Pay Pal, and never, never do that, never do that.


If it's an employee, you must never do that. That's just completely wrong. But even if it's a contractor, you cannot pay contractors with friends and family, PayPal and Venmo, because your business and there is a business, there are fees. Somebody has to pay fees. They are not a business if they are not paying like credit processing fees.

[00:18:57.320] - Miranda

Yes, that's a very good point. And then you get the protection as well. You start that protection. If something goes wrong, you can't then go back to PayPal and say, hey, I gave them this. And they're like, well, that was your friend, you know? Exactly.

[00:19:13.920] - Sarah

And then I'm thinking, well, if if you wanted to pay them without them having fees, then that's you paying them as an employee, which means you were supposed to be doing all this like tax payment stuff, which you didn't do.

[00:19:26.840] - Miranda


[00:19:27.530] - Sarah

So I don't want the IRS mad at you. Nobody wants that. Yeah.

[00:19:31.490] - Miranda

That's another good thing too. Like when you do start branching out and putting all these different things into your business, make sure you get the right tax structure and accounting going, because if you don't have it, you know, that's another thing to look into because you don't want to get to the IRS on their bad side going, no, you did not follow this correctly. Exactly.

[00:19:54.470] - Sarah

It's just a little bit of paperwork. It sounds scary. It does. It sounds scary, but it's it's not that scary. It's just a little bit of paperwork. Get a good CPA on your side and you'll be fine. And so to the things that I wanted to touch on as far as building a team and branching out is like mindset of it. Because two things that I noticed what people no one is deciding, like what to give up or letting things go.

[00:20:25.460] - Miranda

It seems to be hard for especially single entrepreneurs or solo partners to kind of give up the reins and then also being the boss and being assertive enough to then say, this is how I want to do it. You know, do it this way, especially if you have like if you're working with an entrepreneur. I see. That has other clients. You're kind of like I my boss. Do I want to say this. So what do you say about getting into the mindset of actually becoming the boss, letting things go and also being assertive?

[00:20:57.800] - Sarah

It is so hard.


Leading is hard. It sucks a lot. A lot of the time it really does. And so often people become entrepreneurs because they hated bosses so much. So they don't want to be the boss. They don't want to be that boss. And it's hard for them to see that they can be a leader without being like that. Boss, the first step is to give give up, and that's really hard. So sometimes before you're making that first kind of delegation, you might need to train yourself and take baby steps so it could be starting small and within your own personal life.


Start delegating small things like if you live with somebody, start taking home tasks that you normally do and start giving them to somebody else. And you might have to train yourself. Like, for example, I'm very much kind of type A I think there's a ways to load the dishwasher and there's a way not to load the dishwasher as an example. So kind of practicing. So my husband does. He's a creative mind. Right.


So I would have to practice and I would have to kind of when I'm in the dishwasher, like, that's an interesting way to I don't know why you would put a pot in one cabinet and a pot lid and another one, but, OK, that's where they are now. So it's things like that to say small things that don't really have big consequences to train yourself, to say what is my response going to be? And what you want to be able to do is to say, hey, it is not the conclusion or the decision I would have made, but is it in?


Acceptable conclusion. So you need to be able to practice quickly and internally going through that thought process. So in that case, I had to be like, OK, I would not have decided to put a pot in a pot solid and completely different cabinets. I would have decided to do that. Is it the end of the world? No. So I'm going to let it go. Right. And so we're practicing that and putting in an internal way.


Right. Because that doesn't need to be a marriage fight.


So these are the kinds of things to try to practice. Start with little things in your own life, and then you can start bringing them into the work life. And it's OK to give yourself buffers. Right? So it's OK if you first bring somebody on and you have to give them their first assignment and you might say it's due on Monday, but you really don't need it till Wednesday.


Give yourself a buffer just in case they mess it up. You have time to fix it. But you want to make sure that what you're asking yourself is, do I not like it because it's not what I would have done, but is it still OK? Is it still OK because you're bringing different people on for a reason and different people helps your business, right? Nobody ever made a million dollars by themselves. Nobody ever made a business that let them travel the world and stay home with their family more or have a hobby or be able to give back to their charity of choice by themselves.


So at some point, if that's the business that you want, you're going to be have to delegate, which means you're going to have to let somebody else in. But that could be great because that's going to bring innovation. It's going to bring diversity to your business. And that's that's only going to be great if you can kind of let it go. But it's going to take practice and you might mess up and that's OK. And you should also get like a business friend.


And it shouldn't be like a real life friend. It shouldn't be like a significant other. Should it be a family member? It could be a business coach. It could be a life coach. It could be like a mastermind friend, some kind of like business friend that's kind of equal to you that you can have these, like, sessions for because you might just need to have like a closed door venting session because it might happen, because sometimes leaving sucks.


Sometimes it sucks. It does. It really does, because the mindset is key. And there's this one book I'm looking at it. It's called Radical Candor, by Kim Scott. And this is a great book to help with. When you were mentioning kind of having those tough conversations because you were going to have to have tough conversations with team members and that could be team members of your employees, team members that are contractors or even just anybody in your life.


And she thought that a lot of places she talks about when she worked at Apple, things she worked at Google. And her philosophy is, I really, really love it because she she doesn't sugarcoat things. Right. She's not talking about, like, a compliment sandwich. Words like say something nice and then really quickly say the mean thing and then like something random, nice again. And so you're kind of wishy washy and irrelevant. No, you're being very direct, very, very specific.


So we're being very clear in the issue, which is really what she's getting from Steve Jobs. Right. We're being direct and clear. So we're making very productive progress, but. Where we're caring, we have a lot of empathy and what I love about that for the solar panel mindset is that you can still care about people, you can still be friendly with people and be a leader. And this this book really helps with that mindset, because I see so many times that people think that you can either be a good person and be nice to people or you can be a jerk and a leader.


I think with this book and she has great examples from well-respected companies, well respected leaders will know you can be a great, nice person and lead amazing companies at the same time.

[00:27:07.950] - Miranda

Yes, fantastic. And then along the lines of leading, what about like, you know, it's time to cut your losses. You've had a bad hire. I've heard Gary talk about it. They'll hire slow fire fast kind of thing. Like, what is your take on how we should know when it's time to just cut your losses and go?

[00:27:30.490] - Sarah

You need to start from the beginning, setting clear expectations and having clear communications.


So you should always be able to you have your business goals. Right. And you probably have them on your wall. So those business goals trickle down to all your team members. So we should know and you should know they know what they need to accomplish. And all the time we should be having these feedback discussions. And I don't mean we're having these, like, very corporate sit down and have a feedback discussion. I mean, the casual, you know, how you're doing.


However, whatever the vibe is in your company, that vibe can translate into a feedback conversation. Right. For me, I'm a very casual person. It's just how that meeting go have that report go. I do a chance to my employees be how how did it go with Manager X? What did you think about that? Did you think that was effective? Things like that. So you're always having those feedback conversations. So it's never a surprise to the employee whether they're on target or not on target.


And you have feedback discussions where you, the manager, the boss, aren't talking a lot. You're steering the ship about we're talking about Project X, we're talking about the problem. We're talking about the customer complaint. We're talking about something being late. That's what we're talking about. And you're asking questions and they're talking and you're going to find out if it's working out or not, because either that person is going to say, yes, it's not working and they're going to come up with ideas about how to fix it.


They're going to bring up obstacles and they're going to ask for your help. Those two things are progress. You're going to be like, OK, we're in the right direction. We might have had a hiccup, but we're moving in the right direction. And this is progress. And you're going to you're going to be OK. This is fine or they're not right. They're going to be combative. They're going to kind of push back. They might have an attitude and you're going to know it's not going to work, but one that's going to be helpful because you're going to feel reassured, especially if you're that type of person, like we talked about when we talked about radical candor in the mindset that maybe is a little nicer and you don't want to do that.


This is going to make you feel better, that you're making the right decision to let them go, because it's going to kind of put that to underscore your gut feeling that it's not working. So you're going to you're going to feel more confident in your decision. But then from a compliance standpoint, you're kind of checking your boxes about you're doing your due diligence and going through the process, and now you've set up you and your business to one. You're going to feel better from a mindset standpoint, a stress relief standpoint to say it's not working out and your business is going to be more protected to then say, hey, it's not working out.


And a lot of times because you've done it that way, the conversation more so goes. This isn't a good fit for us. And they're going to know it, too, right? It's not going to be so much of, hey, I'm firing you. Oh, I can't believe it. This is a shock to me. I've been working so hard here. If we're having those consistency back discussions, then they're going to know, hey, I've been talking to you for the last couple of days, for the last couple of weeks, I've been talking throughout this project and there's been no kind of improvements.


You haven't met your targets. We talked about this last week. You're going to be in a good position. But really, it's it's always hard. It's always difficult. But, yes, it should always be quick. You get that kind of feeling, have these discussions. You're going you're going to know pretty quickly if this employee is helping you on the road to improvement or if you're underscoring this isn't going to work out. You just need to make sure you're checking your boxes to protect your business when you're letting that employee go and that you're doing it in the most kind of empathetic way.

[00:31:38.180] - Miranda

Yeah, so it all comes full circle, really. Like when you start set up correctly, check all the boxes, get everything situated. You have that right mindset of actually being the boss. And then if you do have to part ways, then, you know, it comes full circle. You're just having to easily let someone go. And so what we do what I do every Friday is I give an action step. If we have listeners that are ready to take the next step, ready to either look for someone to maybe do part time or do something for them, like take on some maybe social media or something, what is a good first step or step of action that you would give them to take this week?

[00:32:24.590] - Sarah

I think that they should try to map out what they do. So do a mapping exercise reflect on the previous week, what kind of everything that you're doing, and then put that on your mind mapping paper and then I want you to first group them together. So kind of everything related to kind of content creation in one group, everything related to like managing client would be one group, them all kind of together and then prioritize them. And then after you prioritize them, that's when we're going to go into kind of how much you like them.


So now once we've grouped them together, prioritize them and put them how much you've liked them. Now we can kind of rack and stack them and now we kind of have the lists that are most important to your business at the top. So we know we need to make sure those are done things at the bottom. So anything at the bottom that's not important and you don't like to do, maybe you can just delete them from your business altogether. But if there are important things that you don't like to do, we can consider outsourcing those if they don't have to be done by you.


So now we can kind of start at the bottom of that priority list after we get through the no priority item, the native priority items that you don't like to do and think about what we can outsource. And that's kind of a good way to look at what we can outsource. Awesome.

[00:33:50.590] - Miranda

Well, thank you, Sarah. This has been such an awesome conversation. I got a lot of good tidbits out of it, the stuff that I didn't think about before. And I want you to let everybody know about your H.R. tool kit and where they can connect with you online.

[00:34:06.560] - Sarah

Oh, wonderful. So you can get my H.R. toolkit for small business at hours or go online dot com slash tool kit. It actually has some resources to help with the assignment I talked about and I love hanging out on LinkedIn. You can check me out there if you like, and you can let me know how your assignment is going. Thanks for having me.

[00:34:29.480] - Miranda

Thank you for joining me. Sarah, I will drop all of those links down in the show notes for everyone. And that is all I have for today. Join me next time.


Thanks for listening to Coffee Powered Systems. You can find links to everything mentioned in the episode. Down in the show. Notes are on the website at mirandamerten.com. If you enjoyed this episode, rate and review it in iTunes or where you enjoy listening so others can find it too. And join me here next time.


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